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Re: Southampton

Postby adge » Tue May 01, 2012 11:50 am

Burf wrote:I might be wrong, but didnt a certain Daniel Sturridge start in our youth set-up ?? :?:

( genuine question, not rhetorical one, btw...my memory aint what it used to .....)
Correct! He was plucked out of it-went on to be coached elsewhere to make him the player he is today. Do you think he would have progressed as much if he had stayed here?
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Re: Southampton

Postby AD » Tue May 01, 2012 11:52 am

adge wrote:
AD wrote:I don't think the problem has ever been the academy - it has by-and-large done very well against other sides in similar age groups. The problem has always been once they progress into the professional ranks. Their development just goes backwards. So if I was one of the parents I'd probably suggest using the Cov academy but signing pro elsewhere.

I think part of that is a lack of a reserves and not sending players out on loan to gain experience. Carsley has just been appointed as 'development coach' which is an U21's reserve team, so hopefully that will help and give the youngsters more time to learn.

And adge, Norwood is 21 and spent three years as a pro, Thomas and Bigi are 18 and technically should have been in the second year of the academy this year.

How many of Man U's academy people make it? Remember Eddie Johnson? What a pile of shite he was
So Norwood is 21-round about the same age as Jordan Clark then? Lets forget about this age how old/how young garbage. If you are good enough you are old enough and will progress and no doubt be spotted.How old is Phil Jones again? How old is Chris Smalling? Oh yes...... :roll: I will bet any money that our "Diamonds" that we have produced this season that not one will go on to play at the top level or even regularly go on and play in the championship. But hey-continue safe in the knowledge that your new Gary McSheffrey is on the production line and will be along soon.


Jones cost £16m. Smalling £10m

And when Norwood turned up for his first few games he looked very nervous and just played like Clingan - sideways or backwards. Similarly Clarke looked better as the season went on and he got his fitness back after a long lay-off (which is vital to a full back dealing with wingers)
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Re: Southampton

Postby the boss » Tue May 01, 2012 11:56 am

adge wrote:
the boss wrote:did we not just have the young player of the season for the championship :?:
You mean the one who couldn't find a team mate for the entire first half and was taken off at half time?



so was he or was he not?
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Re: Southampton

Postby plastic scouser » Tue May 01, 2012 11:58 am

Ryan Giggs: England U16, Wales U18
Paul Scholes: England U18.

....but they must also have been shit....because Marcus Hall played for England U19's.
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Re: Southampton

Postby Timbo » Tue May 01, 2012 12:06 pm

You can't really expect a club of our stature to be producing the same academy results as those in the Premier League. These clubs have more money to spend on coaching staff, facilities, etc. and the kids are training/mixing with a better quality of player. They also have better scouts to find them in the first place and they offer bigger 'incentives'...

The fact is in terms of developing players I don't think we compare well to clubs in a similar position to us but that is not to say that will continue to be the case and its not to say the academy itself is the issue... as PS says it may well be the transition into the seniors where we fall short.
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Re: Southampton

Postby adge » Tue May 01, 2012 12:08 pm

the boss wrote:
adge wrote:
the boss wrote:did we not just have the young player of the season for the championship :?:
You mean the one who couldn't find a team mate for the entire first half and was taken off at half time?



so was he or was he not?
No! He was apprentice of the year.
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Re: Southampton

Postby plastic scouser » Tue May 01, 2012 12:09 pm

[smilie=icon_mrhappy.gif] :lol: :lol:
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Re: Southampton

Postby AD » Tue May 01, 2012 12:10 pm

adge wrote:
the boss wrote:Man U had 2 players in their 1st 11 last night that came though its academy, Scholes and Giggs, both in their middle 30's so whats going wrong there :?:
Nothing! My point exactly! 2 players who have been produced by an academy and have gone on to play 20 years at the top. The penny is finally dropping!


So you're point is tw players who went through theri academy nigh on 20 years ago? And how many have come through recently? And don't say Welbeck - he's as much of a goal threat as my nan. And Rafael and Fabio are shit. Put them in a team that actually has to do some defending on a regular basis and they'd make Clarke look like Cafu.
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Re: Southampton

Postby adge » Tue May 01, 2012 12:10 pm

AD wrote:
adge wrote:
AD wrote:I don't think the problem has ever been the academy - it has by-and-large done very well against other sides in similar age groups. The problem has always been once they progress into the professional ranks. Their development just goes backwards. So if I was one of the parents I'd probably suggest using the Cov academy but signing pro elsewhere.

I think part of that is a lack of a reserves and not sending players out on loan to gain experience. Carsley has just been appointed as 'development coach' which is an U21's reserve team, so hopefully that will help and give the youngsters more time to learn.

And adge, Norwood is 21 and spent three years as a pro, Thomas and Bigi are 18 and technically should have been in the second year of the academy this year.

How many of Man U's academy people make it? Remember Eddie Johnson? What a pile of shite he was
So Norwood is 21-round about the same age as Jordan Clark then? Lets forget about this age how old/how young garbage. If you are good enough you are old enough and will progress and no doubt be spotted.How old is Phil Jones again? How old is Chris Smalling? Oh yes...... :roll: I will bet any money that our "Diamonds" that we have produced this season that not one will go on to play at the top level or even regularly go on and play in the championship. But hey-continue safe in the knowledge that your new Gary McSheffrey is on the production line and will be along soon.


Jones cost £16m. Smalling £10m

And when Norwood turned up for his first few games he looked very nervous and just played like Clingan - sideways or backwards. Similarly Clarke looked better as the season went on and he got his fitness back after a long lay-off (which is vital to a full back dealing with wingers)
Again missing the point! We are talking about AGE.
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Re: Southampton

Postby Burf » Tue May 01, 2012 12:12 pm

Correct! He was plucked out of it-went on to be coached elsewhere to make him the player he is today. Do you think he would have progressed as much if he had stayed here?


Well we'll never know will we - no one can honestly say they know the answer to that.

Maybe he'd have still gone on to be a top player : surely the proportion of real gems hidden in amongst all the 'just okay' players is tiny...if you really are a top top player, you'll probably succeed anywhere..?
The real issue is getting as much out of the the 'just okay' players as possible, no? Strachan, for all his faults used to go on about 'coaching players to be the best they possibly can' - this is the key thing. The chances of finding a Rooney, or Sturridge is tiny - the trick is get 'okay' players to a point where they can perform as decent professionals,surely ?
I'd say now we're in the 3rd division the academy kids are absolutely vital : we've been terrible this season, but next year we're at an even lower level of football - surely we've got more chance of some of those 'just okay' kids being good enough to play in League 1 ??
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Re: Southampton

Postby Timbo » Tue May 01, 2012 12:29 pm

Jones has spent his entire football life with Premier League clubs.
Smalling is an unusual case. He was originally at Millwall before going into Maidenheads youth set up. He only joined Fulham four years ago aged 18.

Players develop at different speeds when they come through the same academy so why should we expect someone who came through ours to be comparable to someone of the same age in a Premier League setup? Lets face it if they ever were comparable they would be signed up like Sturridge was (or Thomas nearly was).

If players get to a certain age and they are not playing to an adequate standard or developing at a reasonable rate then we should write them off and apportion reasons why (scouting, coaching, management, themselves...) but I don't think we are at that stage with any of the current crop of kids. Excluding McSheffrey who was come back who is the oldest academy product in the squad? Clarke, Jeffers, Wilson and Cameron are all only 20.
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Re: Southampton

Postby AD » Tue May 01, 2012 12:30 pm

Again misssing the point - how many of Man U's players at the same AGE most of ours are in our first team are playing at this kind of level? And how many (especially as a percentage of thier overall intake) actually make it? Hardly any.

And you talk about kids going to Villa, Walsall etc instead. Remind of their amazing track records of players that have made it?
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Re: Southampton

Postby adge » Tue May 01, 2012 12:34 pm

AD wrote:
adge wrote:
the boss wrote:Man U had 2 players in their 1st 11 last night that came though its academy, Scholes and Giggs, both in their middle 30's so whats going wrong there :?:
Nothing! My point exactly! 2 players who have been produced by an academy and have gone on to play 20 years at the top. The penny is finally dropping!


So you're point is tw players who went through theri academy nigh on 20 years ago? And how many have come through recently? And don't say Welbeck - he's as much of a goal threat as my nan. And Rafael and Fabio are shit. Put them in a team that actually has to do some defending on a regular basis and they'd make Clarke look like Cafu.
In a nutshell-we have produced 1 player in the last 20 years who went on to play regularly in the top flight-Chris Kirkland. Yes 2 players Scholes and Giggs played the other night-lets not forget Gary Neville, Phill Neville, Nicky Butt, David Beckham, Robbie Savage,Keith Gillespie,Kevin Pilkington,Simon Davies all of who also went on and regularly played in the top flight over that same period. Oh yes we have 1 who has done the same. You could also say Wes Brown-John O'Shea to a degree and an example you wanted of who has come through more recently-Darron Gibson.
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Re: Southampton

Postby the boss » Tue May 01, 2012 12:36 pm

adge wrote:
the boss wrote:
adge wrote:
the boss wrote:did we not just have the young player of the season for the championship :?:
You mean the one who couldn't find a team mate for the entire first half and was taken off at half time?



so was he or was he not?
No! He was apprentice of the year.



so maybe we should have more apprentices 8)
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Re: Southampton

Postby adge » Tue May 01, 2012 12:45 pm

AD wrote:Again misssing the point - how many of Man U's players at the same AGE most of ours are in our first team are playing at this kind of level? And how many (especially as a percentage of thier overall intake) actually make it? Hardly any.

And you talk about kids going to Villa, Walsall etc instead. Remind of their amazing track records of players that have made it?
Gabby Agbonlahor, Mark Albrighton, Nathan Delfouneso, Ciaran Clark, Gary Gardner ,Barry Bannan. All who again have featured regularly in the top flight.
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Re: Southampton

Postby AD » Tue May 01, 2012 12:47 pm

adge wrote:
AD wrote:
adge wrote:
the boss wrote:Man U had 2 players in their 1st 11 last night that came though its academy, Scholes and Giggs, both in their middle 30's so whats going wrong there :?:
Nothing! My point exactly! 2 players who have been produced by an academy and have gone on to play 20 years at the top. The penny is finally dropping!


So you're point is tw players who went through theri academy nigh on 20 years ago? And how many have come through recently? And don't say Welbeck - he's as much of a goal threat as my nan. And Rafael and Fabio are shit. Put them in a team that actually has to do some defending on a regular basis and they'd make Clarke look like Cafu.
In a nutshell-we have produced 1 player in the last 20 years who went on to play regularly in the top flight-Chris Kirkland. Yes 2 players Scholes and Giggs played the other night-lets not forget Gary Neville, Phill Neville, Nicky Butt, David Beckham, Robbie Savage,Keith Gillespie,Kevin Pilkington,Simon Davies all of who also went on and regularly played in the top flight over that same period. Oh yes we have 1 who has done the same. You could also say Wes Brown-John O'Shea to a degree and an example you wanted of who has come through more recently-Darron Gibson.


Gibson is shit. Only thing he can do is hit a shot hard. No accuracy though. He's a passenger in that Everton midfield. And if I remember rightly the likes of the Man U golden generation were picked up from the Bobby Charlton Soccer School.
A much wider and extensive scouting and coaching system and a much higher intake of apprentices with a great deal more spent on their development per head. And they best they can come up with is Darron Gibson - fuck me :roll:

As far as I'm concerend the only real major success stories have been Crewe over a long period, and possibly Southampton recently. Our success stories are comparable with most clubs.

EDIT: Also the late 90's West Ham academy that went on to provide the backbone of the England squad. And we got to the Youth Cup Final two years running.
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Re: Southampton

Postby the boss » Tue May 01, 2012 12:51 pm

adge wrote:
AD wrote:
adge wrote:
the boss wrote:Man U had 2 players in their 1st 11 last night that came though its academy, Scholes and Giggs, both in their middle 30's so whats going wrong there :?:
Nothing! My point exactly! 2 players who have been produced by an academy and have gone on to play 20 years at the top. The penny is finally dropping!


So you're point is tw players who went through theri academy nigh on 20 years ago? And how many have come through recently? And don't say Welbeck - he's as much of a goal threat as my nan. And Rafael and Fabio are shit. Put them in a team that actually has to do some defending on a regular basis and they'd make Clarke look like Cafu.
In a nutshell-we have produced 1 player in the last 20 years who went on to play regularly in the top flight-Chris Kirkland. Yes 2 players Scholes and Giggs played the other night-lets not forget Gary Neville, Phill Neville, Nicky Butt, David Beckham, Robbie Savage,Keith Gillespie,Kevin Pilkington,Simon Davies all of who also went on and regularly played in the top flight over that same period. Oh yes we have 1 who has done the same. You could also say Wes Brown-John O'Shea to a degree and an example you wanted of who has come through more recently-Darron Gibson.



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Re: Southampton

Postby AD » Tue May 01, 2012 12:52 pm

adge wrote:
AD wrote:Again misssing the point - how many of Man U's players at the same AGE most of ours are in our first team are playing at this kind of level? And how many (especially as a percentage of thier overall intake) actually make it? Hardly any.

And you talk about kids going to Villa, Walsall etc instead. Remind of their amazing track records of players that have made it?
Gabby Agbonlahor, Mark Albrighton, Nathan Delfouneso, Ciaran Clark, Gary Gardner ,Barry Bannan. All who again have featured regularly in the top flight.


Going by that list we could then include
Barry Quinn, Robert Betts, Andy Ducros, John Eustace, Craig Pead, Gavin Strachan and Lee Fowler, not to mention Shef, Davenport, Hall and Kirkland. They all played about as many times as some of those you've mentioned above (all of whom seem to come from Villa - what about Wolves, WBA, Walsall etc who are all amazing compared to us apparently.
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Re: Southampton

Postby adge » Tue May 01, 2012 12:53 pm

AD wrote:
adge wrote:
AD wrote:
adge wrote:
the boss wrote:Man U had 2 players in their 1st 11 last night that came though its academy, Scholes and Giggs, both in their middle 30's so whats going wrong there :?:
Nothing! My point exactly! 2 players who have been produced by an academy and have gone on to play 20 years at the top. The penny is finally dropping!


So you're point is tw players who went through theri academy nigh on 20 years ago? And how many have come through recently? And don't say Welbeck - he's as much of a goal threat as my nan. And Rafael and Fabio are shit. Put them in a team that actually has to do some defending on a regular basis and they'd make Clarke look like Cafu.
In a nutshell-we have produced 1 player in the last 20 years who went on to play regularly in the top flight-Chris Kirkland. Yes 2 players Scholes and Giggs played the other night-lets not forget Gary Neville, Phill Neville, Nicky Butt, David Beckham, Robbie Savage,Keith Gillespie,Kevin Pilkington,Simon Davies all of who also went on and regularly played in the top flight over that same period. Oh yes we have 1 who has done the same. You could also say Wes Brown-John O'Shea to a degree and an example you wanted of who has come through more recently-Darron Gibson.


Gibson is shit. Only thing he can do is hit a shot hard. No accuracy though. He's a passenger in that Everton midfield. And if I remember rightly the likes of the Man U golden generation were picked up from the Bobby Charlton Soccer School.
A much wider and extensive scouting and coaching system and a much higher intake of apprentices with a great deal more spent on their development per head. And they best they can come up with is Darron Gibson - fuck me :roll:

As far as I'm concerend the only real major success stories have been Crewe over a long period, and possibly Southampton recently. Our success stories are comparable with most clubs.
So what we are saying then is that most clubs including ours do not produce?
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Re: Southampton

Postby adge » Tue May 01, 2012 1:01 pm

AD wrote:
adge wrote:
AD wrote:Again misssing the point - how many of Man U's players at the same AGE most of ours are in our first team are playing at this kind of level? And how many (especially as a percentage of thier overall intake) actually make it? Hardly any.

And you talk about kids going to Villa, Walsall etc instead. Remind of their amazing track records of players that have made it?
Gabby Agbonlahor, Mark Albrighton, Nathan Delfouneso, Ciaran Clark, Gary Gardner ,Barry Bannan. All who again have featured regularly in the top flight.


Going by that list we could then include
Barry Quinn, Robert Betts, Andy Ducros, John Eustace, Craig Pead, Gavin Strachan and Lee Fowler, not to mention Shef, Davenport, Hall and Kirkland. They all played about as many times as some of those you've mentioned above (all of whom seem to come from Villa - what about Wolves, WBA, Walsall etc who are all amazing compared to us apparently.
Yep-more dirge from the production line!
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