2nd Test

Will England win a game of anything?
Will Tiger Tim win Wimbledon?


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Postby dog rout 21 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:58 am

Burf wrote:Erm.... am I allowed to comment ??? [smilie=icon_wink.gif]


the curse of burf starts again!
ISUZU OUT!
#bringcovbacktonorthampton
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Postby Sky Blue Strawberry » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:07 am

Sky Blue Strawberry wrote:Seems destined for a draw - lets hope we don't collapse and are all out for 150 to let the Aussies in through the back door


The day we lost the ashes [smilie=icon_sad.gif]

One bad sesson and its all gone to pot
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Postby Timbo » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:41 am

With all the injuries we've had since the last Ashes it was always going to be a uphill struggle. In saying that once again the Aussies have been shown to be a league ahead of us in the mental states. I think Fletcher should shoulder some of the blame and it might be time for him to stand down.

Although the Ashes aren't lost just yet I think we should be selecting players with one eye on the future now (I would have been doing it from the start). Continuing to ignore Panesar would be scandalous. The experience some of the younger players get this tour could be vital for future success. I wouldn't be surprised if the Aussies were to win the next test that they started to bring in one or two younger players.
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Postby billythefish » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:25 am

Apart from Monty for Giles I think we have the strongest team out there (excepting injuries). Not sure there are too many alternatives that have been crying out for selection.

We have a reasonably young side out there already and bringing in more youth probably wouldnt be beneficial. Especially as cant think of too many younger players that deserve to be there.

Agree with the comment regarding Fletcher but who do you replace the best "coach" England have had for many years with?. At the end of the day pretty much the best squad was picked and not sure Fletcher can be blamed for a shocking batting performance.
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Postby Anonymous » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:44 am

Panesar for Giles

Mahmood for Anderson

Yes Giles can bat a bit but you can't win a test without bowling the other team out - Giles aint gonna do that - end of!!

Mahmood can bat a bit - Anderson can neither bowl nor bat....

I fly out on the 28th December to Sydney - I don't expect to be watching the cricket with any interest by then!!!! [smilie=icon_neutral.gif]
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Postby Timbo » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:27 pm

If you say Fletcher can't be blamed for our batting performance today then he can't take the praise for when we do well either.

Under Fletcher we may have had some of our best results but Sven was Englands most successful England manager in years too. Did we succeed because of Fletcher or because of the quality of players he had at his disposal?

You could blame the lack of mental toughness/character the English cricket team sometimes display on the English psyche until you remember that half of them aren't English. :grin: Indeed the player who has arguably shown most character in this test has been Collingwood. We sometimes (in all sports) focus too much on quality/skill and not enough on the mental attributes.

Theres an argument that we could and should have beaten the Aussies more convincingly in the last series. Since then we've not played that great and only won one series albeit under tough conditions in India/Pakistan. But what is most worrying is our ODI form.

The future comment was mostly talking about Panesar but my other concern is that Vaughan might come back into the team even after the series has been lost. Fletcher does seem to have his favourites... Geraint Jones for example.

Sometimes you just get to the stage where a coach or managers tenure runs its course and a change is needed to freshen things up. Of course with change comes risk. I'm not saying Fletcher should go but he shouldn't be allowed to live off the glory of the Ashes win forever.
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Postby Sky Blue Strawberry » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:03 pm

I'd drop Jones for Read as well, he hasn't justified his place with his batting, missed a stumping and dropped a catch in the first test and then dropped Clark this morning
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Postby billythefish » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:20 pm

It seems that Fletcher agrees that our batting line up is fragile as he insists on picking a bowler (Giles) and keeper (Jones) because of their better batting when there are better bowlers and keepers around. I guess this is all down to priorities and if your batsmen dont put enough runs on the board then generally it is irrelevent what keeper and bowler plays as they need a decent total to bowl at. Having said that we have been outplayed in two tests in both departments of the game. Only the first innings of this test have we been really on top.

The turning point of this test was Giles dropping Ponting in the first innings and once we let them back in the test the took the game by the scruff of the neck and somehow got an unlikely win. In the Ashes series here it was Warne who made a similar error. Games could go down to small errors like these and I think there is very little talent wise between the two teams.

It just seems that the Aussies are better at getting out of tough situations than we are. Is that a mental problem? If it is then it is probably just the difference in what makes them world number 1? God knows what the answer is but not sure that changing a coach this at this stage would help. Leave him in charge until after the World Cup and make a decision then. How many sides in the last 20 years have beaten the Aussies away from home? In fact how many have beaten them anywhere? Remember we are playing the best cricket side in the world.

Our one day form has been a huge disapointment when player wise we should compete and In Collingwood, Pieterson, Flintoff and Hoggard have players that should do well in this format. No other side except England has two distinct teams for the different formats. Everyone else keeps a body of 8 or 9 of the test team and adds 2 or 3 specialist one day players. We change the majority of the side this is the one failing in my opinion of Fletcher. But dont think this is enough to change the coach.

Hopefully we will sneak the next test and compete in the rest of this series but at the minute it does seem a tough ask especially if Flintoff is injured.
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Postby dog rout 21 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:21 pm

despite losing it was a cracking days play, was only gonna watch the first session cus it had draw written all over it and ended up watching the entire thing

not sure about flintoff's captaincy in australia's second innings, like the commentary was saying he was very negative at a time when we needed wickets, it also looked like his head dropped a bit, not sure he can be expected to do it all

giles played like a ****, should never have got out to warne like that, missed the ponting catch, and bowled like a twat at the end

also not too sure about declaring at 550 with 4 wickets to spare on a pitch that was pretty much certain for a draw, hindsights a wonderful thing but 1-0 would still be savable and wait for a pitch that would do more for our poor attack
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Postby Timbo » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:34 pm

I'm not proposing a change between now and the World Cup but if results in the ODI continued to be poor when would be the opportune time to replace him? Theres hardly a break in the schedule.

After this series they immediately have a triangular series with 8+ ODI's. Then there is a months break until the WC in March. Barring a disaster we'll be playing in that until the end of April. Then there is another months break before the series with the West Indies.

One Day Internationals are a major part of modern cricket and unless our aim is purely to be the number one test team (which whilst we have made great strides we are still some way short of) we can't continue to fail in the one day format.
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Postby Burf » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:34 pm

not saying a word...... [smilie=icon_div274.gif]
"...your feeble skills are no match for the power of the Dark Side..."
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Postby billythefish » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:40 pm

I think at times like this we need a bit a reality check and remember how poor we were before Fletcher. I seem to remember a series just before Bumble took over when we used something like 8 one cap wonders. We have slowly improved and as a test side are in the top 3. We have a stable base of test cricketers that can hold there own against anyone in the world.

The one day form is a worry and Fletcher seems to have lost the plot here. Perhaps the answer is to bring someone in to manage the one day side and leave Fletcher in charge of test team. Problem is who and what would Fletcher think of this.
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Postby Timbo » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:02 pm

But were we crap before because we didn't have the players we have now? Has Fletcher simply benefitted from having a group of players who have matured at the right time?

He picked the wrong side for this test and if we continues to ignore the glaringly obvious (that we need wicket takers more than we need someone who might get a few runs batting at number 8 ) then he should be made accountable.
Last edited by Timbo on Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sky Blue Steve-o » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:15 pm

dog rout 21 wrote:also not too sure about declaring at 550 with 4 wickets to spare on a pitch that was pretty much certain for a draw, hindsights a wonderful thing but 1-0 would still be savable and wait for a pitch that would do more for our poor attack



No team had ever lost a match after scoring over 550 in the first innings until today. We should never have lost with that score on the board. If we need to score more than 550 to save the match then there's something seriously wrong with our bowling attack.

It doesn't matter if we score 800, with the current attack there is no way we're going to bowl the Aussies out twice. Freddy is injured, Harmison has 1 wicket in 4 innings, Anderson won't get wickets, Giles is seen as an easy target for the Aussies. That leaves Hoggard as currently the only wicket taking bowler. We can't expect him to do it all for us. Panesar has to come in for Giles. I can't see Mahmood making much difference, but we have nothing to lose. If we don't change it we're heading for a 5-0 whitewash anyway.

Fletcher reminds me of Clive Woodward on the Lions tour. He refuses to change things and sticks with what worked 2 years ago, not what would work now.
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Postby Sky Blue Strawberry » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:38 pm

Sky Blue Steve-o wrote:

No team had ever lost a match after scoring over 550 in the first innings until today.


Sorry to be a pedant but apparently Australia did against India about 4 years ago - which may have provided them the extra iincentive if any were needed
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Postby dog rout 21 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:07 pm

but i've never seen a pitch as flat and dead than that during the first couple of days and it was always gonna turn on the final day which is why we didnt want to be chasing or trying to hold out
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Postby Sky Blue Steve-o » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:36 pm

It's irrelevant how many runs we score. To win we still have to take 20 wickets, and it's hard to see where 10 are coming from at the moment.
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Postby dog rout 21 » Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:20 pm

yeh but on that pitch the chances of winning the game were very very slim
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Postby billythefish » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:52 pm

Sky Blue Strawberry wrote:
Sky Blue Steve-o wrote:

No team had ever lost a match after scoring over 550 in the first innings until today.


Sorry to be a pedant but apparently Australia did against India about 4 years ago - which may have provided them the extra iincentive if any were needed


It was the first time a side had declared on over 550 and lost. As SBS says Austrilia lost previously against India when the were bowled out for over 550.
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Postby Sky Blue Strawberry » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:33 pm

Thank you Willliam :grin:
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