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When Les met Joy...

Postby Burf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:26 am

great work again from my old mate Les Reid.... & it's about time people started to suck this up.

I think it was Scouser who stated yonks ago that in a battle between a top Mayfair Hedge Fund & inept local government machinery
there is only ever going to be one winner. ACL & CCC have tried to play hard ball & are way, way out of their depth.

I think it's helpful to read the phrase "“I am not looking to pack my bags and go away. I want return on my investment.” Well, hot damn - really ?!
What did everyone expect ? They might as well go the full 9 yards now - they want to get their money back & then make some. And in the very long
run there's no reason to not do this, theoretically. Joy & co aren't interested in football - but so what. short of a Jack Walker / Dave Whelan type character - which we don't have - all you're going to get is business people. You think Preston Haskell IV is interested in a tin-pot provincial football club, really ? He wanted the land around the Ricoh for development & if you don't believe this then you're delusional.

The way SISU have acted has been shite. But so has dicking around with the club & getting us 20 pts deducted - your loving City Council there for you. Time to face it -
the only game in town is SISU/Otium, for the forseeable future. Deal with it.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby haggis » Thu Sep 26, 2013 9:55 am

Apart from saying "hot damn", well said! :D
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby AD » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:29 am

"I want a return on my investment" Don't we all. But if you make shit investments you get no return, or lose money. If you can't handle that fact get a nice secure 9-5 job in the public sector. Any idiot would have told you you don't put money into football as an investment - all the info shows that despite huge amounts of TV cash most clubs are running at massive losses, and not just accounts style loses but the much, much worse cash losses. The only people who make any money out of football are players, agents and the TV companies. So if Joy wants a return perhaps she should take a pair of boots to Sixfields on Sunday.

And the 20 points deduction legally had fuck all to do with the council, or ACL. ARVO put the club into administration causing the first 10 point deduction. Yes, this was to stop ACL starting admin, but that in itself was a reaction to SISU threatening liquidation. And the timing of the creditors meeting was such that the sale would never have been completed to Otium before the start of the season anyway, making the 10 points this season inevitable and the fault of the administrator for taking so much time over the job (which he completely ballsed up and a cynic might suggest was deliberate to bring it as close to the deadline as possible to try and force ACL to agree).

I think Joy will win. SISU/Otium will own the Ricoh. But notice I put SISU/Otium, NOT CCFC. It will be hidden away in its own little company as part of the 'group' with CCFC paying some kind of 'management fee' for its use, hidden deep, deep in the accounts, at which point you'll be reminiscing about the day we could have had it so much cheaper under the council.

This is why we live in such a shit society. Because we let such amoral, corrupt wankers do shit like this without repercussion. In fact, beyond that, they actually end up just getting what they want. So where's the disincentive? Do you think once she's got her hands on the Ricoh she'll suddenly play nice and do what's best for the club? Bollocks will she. She'll think "Well if I can get away with that with this bunch of idiotic twats lets see how much harder I can bum-fuck them".

I'm not saying the likes of PHIV or anyone else doesn't want the development opportunities the Ricoh provides. They may be just as bad, but one things for sure under this ownership CCFC is going nowhere but out of existence. The playing side is nothing more than a cash drain on their resources and they will get rid of it ASAP (but keep the profitable stadium naturally).

All this about the council causing the problems and not doing what's best for the football club because the council won't sell the stadium. They will. They WANT to - it causes them nothing but grief. They just won't sell it to you because time and time again you've proven untrustworthy. So if you genuinely were bothered about doing what's best for the football club you'd sell it, a move which would enable the club and stadium to be under a single ownership and bring fans back.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby Burf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:26 am

hot damn Haggis - I'm typing in an American accent here... :lol:

AD : yes it's shit. Modern football is shit. it's ruined. broken. fucked. SISU /Otium are ****.
Trust me - I've no love for fucking hedge funds, they're amongst the fuckers that have dropped this
country & most of the world into an economic shit pit. I hate fucking Sky TV & Murdoch...Saudi oil Sheikhs &
all the rest of those **** that have ruined football.
But, right here, right now, for the fans of Coventry City football club it's a very simple, polarized choice : do you
want a club, or not ?
If not, then fair enough - the club can collapse & you can start some phoenix club /AFC Coventry bullshit - good luck with it.
If you want Coventry City FC - winners of the 1987 FA Cup Final - to continue, then we're going to have stomach being owned & run by this lot.
Simple. Unpalatable yes, but unavoidable right now nonetheless. There is no plan B. Joy & Co own the club. They won't be forced out, they won't go
away, unless someone offers them the valuation on their asset that they deem acceptable : no-one will. All the blue ribbons & jumping up & down on
the a scratty hill isn't going to get them to change their mind. Ever heard the phrase 'cutting off your nose to spite your face' ? Well that's where we're at...
And it's shit, but true.
One last time - does everyone want a club to support or not ? Given the facts, it sadly is that simple.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby The Yid » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:01 pm

AD - can't quite believe that you think that the local council have the capability to act as the 'moral compass' in relating to deciding who should and shouldn't own the football stadium. I seem to remember it was the same council that shafted the club with the Ricoh deal before SISU even arrived.

NOPM, KCIC et al have has zero impact so far and won't have any in the future - from a financial perspective at least.
They have alienated their fan base by moving to Northampton, that will be their main obstacle going forward - but the financial implications of the move will barely touch the surface.

As for your conspiracy theories over what they'll do if they get the stadium... They're exactly that. They'll know that if they could ever get the club back to the top flight, they will be able to get their investment back and then some.

And no matter how much of a **** you think Fisher is - he is still the only person involved in CCFC that has ever produced or demonstrated an intention to instigate a plan the means the football club will be self sufficient and can break even.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby AD » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:45 pm

Burf wrote:
AD : yes it's shit. Modern football is shit. it's ruined. broken. fucked. SISU /Otium are ****.
Trust me - I've no love for fucking hedge funds, they're amongst the fuckers that have dropped this
country & most of the world into an economic shit pit. I hate fucking Sky TV & Murdoch...Saudi oil Sheikhs &
all the rest of those **** that have ruined football.
But, right here, right now, for the fans of Coventry City football club it's a very simple, polarized choice : do you
want a club, or not ?


Was this not EXACTLY the same argument we were given when SISU took over? Do you want a club or not? There was no other option. This was the best it would be. And we all fell for it. Well now we know the other option, administration, however unpalatable it seemed, would have been much better in the long term. You fall for it like a mug again if you want, but I for one will not be fooled again.

"Cutting off your nose to spite your face"? This is cutting off your nose to shove it down your throat and choke yourself to death with it.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby AD » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:30 pm

The Yid wrote:AD - can't quite believe that you think that the local council have the capability to act as the 'moral compass' in relating to deciding who should and shouldn't own the football stadium. I seem to remember it was the same council that shafted the club with the Ricoh deal before SISU even arrived.

NOPM, KCIC et al have has zero impact so far and won't have any in the future - from a financial perspective at least.
They have alienated their fan base by moving to Northampton, that will be their main obstacle going forward - but the financial implications of the move will barely touch the surface.

As for your conspiracy theories over what they'll do if they get the stadium... They're exactly that. They'll know that if they could ever get the club back to the top flight, they will be able to get their investment back and then some.

And no matter how much of a **** you think Fisher is - he is still the only person involved in CCFC that has ever produced or demonstrated an intention to instigate a plan the means the football club will be self sufficient and can break even.


Funny, I seem to remember that the council pretty much just took the terms of the agreement from the HR rent back agreement and used that. Same yearly rental fee, just for a brand new stadium at twice the capacity and with much, much better facilities, especially in the much sought after corporate area. Potential to increase matchday earnings from tickets etc at least three times over what they could at the time for the same price.

Can you imagine the uproar in the local media/non football supporting electorate and questions being asked about public funding/support if they'd asked for LESS than what the developers of the old ground were getting? For something that was already there, and smaller and inferior to what they were building? At the very least they had to ask for the same so in fact I think you'll find it was the developers and the naivety of BR that brought about that situation.

Now the council's moral compass may be a bit defective, but at least they have it and give it a quick glance now and then. Joy took hers, smashed it to bits, encased it in a barrel of gunpowder, lit the fuse and threw it overboard.

Fisher isn't the first to instigate a break-even plan. Fletcher had pretty much the same plan, but didn't involve ramping up the animosity between the two parties to make it untenable. Ranson had the plan of investing heavily in the academy for incremental improvement and making money from transfers, as well as save a bit of money on wages due to their age. A strategy that has worked well for Crewe and Walsall recently. Both of these plans are theoretically feasible, but by no means guaranteed success. Lots of clubs have plans to break even and be self sufficient. And all but one or two fail dismally because any money that comes in is immediately demanded by agents for the players. They provide the product so they deserve the pie. With lashings of cream and sauce. And second helpings.

IF it works, it will have had nothing to do with TF, but rules put in place that all the clubs have to follow that prevent the players from asking for too much. Otherwise it's just a free market, highest bidder wins and TF is stuck in the same spiral of overpaying players all his predecessors were. If Fletcher or Ranson had had those at their disposal they'd have managed to break even too, just without reducing the income by 75% in the process. Even then, in a recent survey (which is of course by no means necessarily completely representative) only 50% of fans said they'd go back and 30% said the definitely wouldn't until SISU/Otium were no longer in charge. So in fact his own plan is in tatters while his employers are still there. Any extra money taken in from other matchday revenue sources won't even offset the loss in ticket sales. Sponsorship and advertising revenues will be at a much lower value than previously. As plans go its a pretty fucked up one.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby Burf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:45 pm

Well now we know the other option, administration, however unpalatable it seemed, would have been much better in the long term. You fall for it like a mug again if you want, but I for one will not be fooled again.


you're right - administration back then would have been better. Probably. Who knows ? Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

as for recent administration : better off are we ? solved it all has it, like all the mugs calling for it thought ? Has it fuck. all it's done has crippled last years tilt at the playoffs & will similarly knacker this year I'd imagine in the end. SISU are still here. Hmm...lets think now...maybe actually a winning team, getting promoted a couple of times in the next 2 or 3 years..would that help our plight ? No. course not. I'll stand on a fucking hill in Northampton with a placard scrawled in crayon instead. that'll work.

We are where are we are. Joy & Co are in control. deal with it.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby The Yid » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:19 pm

Fletcher may well have had a similar plan.. but then he fucked off becuase he knew he had no chance of ever implementing it whilst the council had the noose around the clubs neck. Sounds familiar doesn't it...

You can continue to exclusively blame SISU as much as you like, and make excuses for the councils actions... but whoever the owner was we would have ultimately ended up here one way or another as long as the club stayed at the Ricoh under the original terms. It doesn't fucking matter how nice the facilities are, how much of an improvement on HR, or potential benefits etc -if your main client can't access it due to the financial constraints you have put in place you've got a big problem. ACL and CCC seem incapable of even acknowldging this. And if it was such a brilliant stadium, and a great package then why haven't they replaced the club already???

People are complaining about SISU wanting the Ricoh for peanuts.. but the only people devaluing the stadium are ACL and CCC. The longer the stadium stays empty the less it's worth. So if SISU do ever pick up the Ricoh on the cheap, it will be down to the naiveity of it's current owners.

SISU might be ****, but they know how to run a business.. can you say the same for ACL?
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby the boss » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:00 pm

I said many moons ago that I would put up with the devil himself in charge of the club as long as he made it successful. What i cannot live with is playing in another town. That is just plain wrong.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby AD » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:35 pm

Burf wrote:
Well now we know the other option, administration, however unpalatable it seemed, would have been much better in the long term. You fall for it like a mug again if you want, but I for one will not be fooled again.


you're right - administration back then would have been better. Probably. Who knows ? Hindsight is a wonderful thing...

as for recent administration : better off are we ? solved it all has it, like all the mugs calling for it thought ? Has it fuck. all it's done has crippled last years tilt at the playoffs & will similarly knacker this year I'd imagine in the end. SISU are still here. Hmm...lets think now...maybe actually a winning team, getting promoted a couple of times in the next 2 or 3 years..would that help our plight ? No. course not. I'll stand on a fucking hill in Northampton with a placard scrawled in crayon instead. that'll work.

We are where are we are. Joy & Co are in control. deal with it.


It's still far too early to say how this administration will work out. We won't know for years. All I know for sure is that whatever happens will happen for the benefit of SISU and Seppala. If that means CCFC suffering, CCFC will suffer. If it means CCFC going completely out of business it will go out of business.

As for knackering play-off hopes, in the end last year we weren't even close even without the loss of points, and had they not been taken away deep down we all know they'd have bottled it even earlier than they did. It's what this club does. Similarly this year I firmly believe we're playing like this due to the freedom and lack of pressure the deduction gave. If we continue and look remotely in with a chance you can guarantee promotion form will turn to relegation form almost overnight.

We are where we are. CCC/ACL are in control of the Ricoh. They will not sell to SISU. Deal with it.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby the boss » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:40 pm

another point, they are hardly likely to say the club is for sale are they as fire sales don't raise as much. Everything in businesss has a price and CCFC is no different.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby Burf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:42 pm

ACL & CCC are now the major obstacles to this club moving forward. Fact. Our only hope is that Joy decides to stay the course, build the new ground & move the club forward. We're fucked otherwise. No one else is coming to the rescue. Deal with it.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby AD » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:59 pm

The Yid wrote:Fletcher may well have had a similar plan.. but then he fucked off becuase he knew he had no chance of ever implementing it whilst the council had the noose around the clubs neck. Sounds familiar doesn't it...

You can continue to exclusively blame SISU as much as you like, and make excuses for the councils actions... but whoever the owner was we would have ultimately ended up here one way or another as long as the club stayed at the Ricoh under the original terms. It doesn't fucking matter how nice the facilities are, how much of an improvement on HR, or potential benefits etc -if your main client can't access it due to the financial constraints you have put in place you've got a big problem. ACL and CCC seem incapable of even acknowldging this. And if it was such a brilliant stadium, and a great package then why haven't they replaced the club already???

People are complaining about SISU wanting the Ricoh for peanuts.. but the only people devaluing the stadium are ACL and CCC. The longer the stadium stays empty the less it's worth. So if SISU do ever pick up the Ricoh on the cheap, it will be down to the naiveity of it's current owners.

SISU might be ****, but they know how to run a business.. can you say the same for ACL?


If SISU had as much money as they reckon why didn't they buy the stadium when they had the chance at the reduced rate? Why didn't they invest heavily in the squad in the Championship to get promotion to the Prem and access to all the TV cash and sell up for a decent profit in a year or two? Why would investors give them the cash now when the clubs in a lower division and the owners of the stadium are hell bent on selling to anyone but them, if they wouldn't give it them 5 years ago when they took over?

Either because they don't have as much money as they claim, or their business plan was massively flawed, in which case why would an investor trust them with their funds, or would you want them as owner of a major asset?

Can I say the same for ACL? Has the Ricoh consistently returned a profit? Yes. Has CCFC under SISU? No. It's losing money hand over fist, of which only a very small proportion is due to the Ricoh rent, and even the takings from the stadium would barely scratch the surface of the clubs losses even before the ridiculous decision to completely alienate it from its customer base. SISU have made loses for the last three years. Under their stewardship CCFC has been relegated, seen a 90% decrease in attendances and a 75% drop in income. So of those which do I think is better a running a business?

And that's because SISU don't run businesses, they pick the bones clean like vultures. It costs money to run businesses, but very little to just take all its assets. They take a terminally ill patient, deny them medical help to expediate their demise, get them to leave SISU everything in their will and then shove a pillow over their face. Right now the pen is being dangled in front of your nose.......
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby Burf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:14 pm

Still not getting what your alternative is here AD?

SISU will have that team playing to two people & their dog in an empty cowshed in Northampton or anywhere else for that matter, for as long as it takes. They cannot be forced to sell. They don't care if 150 becomes the home crowd. They can't be starved out. Don't you get that ?
So what's your plan ?
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby AD » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:19 pm

Burf wrote:ACL & CCC are now the major obstacles to this club moving forward. Fact. Our only hope is that Joy decides to stay the course, build the new ground & move the club forward. We're fucked otherwise. No one else is coming to the rescue. Deal with it.


No. CCFC and the stadium need to brought together. There have been people around willing to do that. There were 5 bidders for the club, apparently which didn't have any assets (but surprise surprise was actually found to not be the case). ACL/CCC were willing to sell to these parties. All SISU had to do was let someone else take over the club they've made such a pig's ear out of running and put into admin in the first place and voila, CCFC and Ricoh are together, new owners bring back the alienated fans and the club moves forward.

Or option 2, ACL sell SISU the stadium, fans don't come back because of total lack of trust or belief in the owners and the club are playing in front of a massively reduced crowd and the club is still losing shit loads of money. Which of those two is the way forward? And whose stopping it happening? SISU. Fact.

No-one is building a new ground. Deal with it. She says they've been looking at sites for over a year. In the summer TF said they'd whittled the potential sites down to two and were on the verge of a deal. Yet no deal has been done. In fact they've now got FOUR potential sites, which handily puts the decision process back. Where were these sites over the last year when the sites were being assessed? Has some massive tectonic occurrence happened that has created a new piece of land in the middle of the country, or drained a lake no-one knew about? No. Because it's all smoke and mirrors bullshit.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby the boss » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:22 pm

AD wrote: No. Because it's all smoke and mirrors bullshit.



that just about sums it up for me 8)
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby Burf » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:25 pm

Joy ain't gonna sell. Not unless it's for daft money. There are no such buyers. We've been through this.
ACL & the council won't deal with SISU. SISU won't deal with ACL & the Council. Thats we are. In Northampton, for the forseable future. Is everyone just going to keep standing on that hill ? Or are thy going to accept that the bad guys have won, start backing the club again in the realization that some success could actually be the game changer ... The thing that breaks the impasse.
Where's your plan AD?
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby The Yid » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:45 pm

We get it... They fucked up massively in the past, and should have bought the Ricoh before. But rather than look always at past we actually need to look to the future.

Seeing as you seem obsessed with the past - let's talk about it some more. Firstly CCFC haven't turned a profit in 17/18 years probably. So it's hardly a SISU exclusive problem is it?? Secondly you say ACL made profit, but only because Isle of Capri paid a £7m fine to LEAVE the complex. And since that was agreed they have been distributing that money in their accounts at £1m a year. All perfectly legal of course. But if you take their last published accounts, they made a profit with both CCFC paying extortionate rent AND their 'top up'. Which means that without either of these they have a business doomed to fail. So tell me where the sustainable plan is?

But I digress... Fact is that we are where we are. If you feel comfortable in holding onto the past in order to adequately apportion the blame that's fine. But the club has moved on. If the council won't sell to SISU it's their choice, but SISU don't need them anymore.. And as difficult as it is to take, the football club don't need the council either.

The club needs it's fans, but when the club return (possibly even in a new stadium) the fans will attend. And the ones that say they won't were probably the same ones that didn't attend before they left.
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Re: When Les met Joy...

Postby the boss » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:48 pm

Burf wrote:Where's your plan AD?



to be honest I doubt anyone has a plan when it comes to this mess. I for one don't believe a new ground will ever be built so if they don't go back to the Ricoh where does it all end? No business can take losses forever.

By the way Burf what is your plan? Will you be traveling to sixfields every 2nd Sunday or will you be tucking into your Sunday roast :?: :lol:
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